Gays and Blacks

I am going out on a limb here and posting the thread from the post below as a post itself.

70% of black Californians voted FOR prop 8 - which is as close to a "Jim Crow" proposition that we've seen in California since the 60's. Many interesting points are made by readers - and there is genuine fury and pain. Nothing about the election last night surprised me except this stat: 70% of blacks voted to rescind a basic right for millions of people. Here in lies the ultimate danger of politics based on identity and not values. Gay people must now stomach that the majority of AAs oppose their rights. I am not being too cute by half cute or racist here. I am reflecting facts. If those who have felt the brunt of discrimination most severely had responded by helping others up the ladder - Prop 8 would have failed. Hispanics voted yes by a bare majority. Other major groups voted no. Even if AAs had split Prop 8 would have failed.

The signal to gays is "You're on your own." Gay men and women deserve better from those who should understand the most. I am not stunned that it passed. I am horrified that Prop 8 won by a landslide in black community.

Think I am picking a scab? You are right. An infected scab. Think I am racist? Go to hell. The word itself is now meaningless thanks to Mr. Obama. Facts are facts. Further, I firmly believe the misogyny of the Obama campaign has EVERYTHING to do with this result. Hatred of women and hatred of gays are kissing cousins. 10 steps forward on racism...20 steps back on gay rights and women's rights...


The comments:

I'm speechless right now, trying to adjust to this fact.

People who have been the victim of bigotry and rallied against it voted to write discrimination into a state's constitution.

The deep ignorance of these people is astonishing to me, and I'm trying to figure out how to understand it.

I'm glad I made my 'congratulations' calls to my black friends last night, before hearing this result.
Jay in (not of) L.A. | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 12:22 pm | #

That's sad.

I'm afraid people are going to be in for some more surprises as this country swings further away from progressive causes. I hate to say it, but I see an increase coming in both homophobia and misogyny.

On the other hand, perhaps this will trigger enough outrage that people will unite against it?
yttik | 11.05.08 - 12:35 pm | #

Jay,

One explanation may be that our black friends have been so incited and ignited by the one-note of bo's campaign that they have become entrenched in the myopia that black people are the equivalent of German Jews and no one, no one has been as historically savaged as they. I wish someone would try to explain that possible reason (which understandably would never be uttered outside a blog such as this) to our Native American, Asian (specially Chinese and Japanese), and Hispanic friends.

To use the argument that "now, it's our turn" is specious at best. It's also in a way Marxist because it presumes there's only so much justice "pie" to go around.
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 12:43 pm | #

Proof positive that discrimination against the LGBT community isn't the sole property of conservatives. I appreciate the stats of how the different groups voted on Prop 8, but as a gay woman I already knew how each of those groups would shake out.
CarolynKB | 11.05.08 - 1:09 pm | #

Proof! that bigotry comes in all colors and ideologies...

Regards to all
Bob | 11.05.08 - 2:25 pm | #

Jeannie --

Something that plays in here is that so many black men are on the 'down low' that it fuels massive homophobia.

I think this has a lot to do with it.
Jay in (not of) L.A. | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 2:46 pm | #

To think, if Obama had not been pandering (assuming he was pandering and not a complete homophobe himself) to the Right and to the AA community, then I doubt Prop 8 would have passed.

Obama was the invisible man in terms of gay rights and look at what happened--every single anti-gay measure on ballots in various states passed.

Obama could have been a beacon for us, especially in light of his support in the AA community. He could have stressed our rights. He could have analogized to the historical AA struggle for equal rights.

Instead, he emphasized that marriage was between a man and a woman, put homophobic assholes on his campaign payroll, and stood by silenty as his support grew and ours waned.

If people really think that Obama will elect a progressive to SCOTUS, they really need to wake up already. The man is going to be angling for reelection for a majority of his time in office. He isn't going to do anything to jeopardize his popularity with groups that--as a whole--despise gay people.
brand | 11.05.08 - 3:18 pm | #

Brand --

I wish it weren't so, but you're probably right on.
Jay in (not of) L.A. | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 3:32 pm | #

Brand, you are exactly right. I have always said that any gay person who thought Obama would do anything for gay rights is delusional. We have been used for
our votes (not mine) and now we will be tossed aside. And now within the past twenty-four hours, Hamas has fired missles into Israel and today the Russian president is threatening missle deployment to eastern Europe. Didn't Medvedev hear we had elected the One? Isn't the world supposed to join hands now and sing kumbayah? Thank goodness we elected such an "expert" on foreign policy.
Lcash | 11.05.08 - 4:06 pm | #

Jay: Ahh. Hadn't thought of that, but you may have something there. Jeeze. If so, that's a poor excuse for them isn't it?
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 4:08 pm | #

Lcash: True story? I just took a little break from a home project and haven't had the "news" on.
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 4:10 pm | #

Jeannie, here is a link to the story on Russia.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORL...ussia.missiles/
Lcash | 11.05.08 - 4:15 pm | #

I posted this comment over at Riverdaughter too.

I think we are going to see what we called in Chicago the Harold Washington coalition fall apart. This coalition, in effect since the start of the civil rights era and which brought the city’s first AA mayor to power, was of “lakefront liberals” and AAs against the working class Bungalow Belt. It was always a very awkward coalition, as the two camps share so few social mores aside from civil rights, and often have opposed interests. Republicans have wondered for years why more religious African Americans don’t vote GOP, but their own racist appeals did in their efforts to woo this electorate.

However, now that the coalition has achieved its ultimate goal, it is newly vulnerable. The passage of Prop 8 and other anti-LGBT results show major cracks in the coalition, cracks which Republicans or Democratic rivals will try to exploit.

Far from entering a post racial era, we may see some heating up in relations as resentment over Prop 8 and other conservative wins abetted by AA voters boils over.

I think there’s going to be a shift in the power balance in the coalition. It’s going to be much harder to manipulate coalition allies through liberal guilt now that an African American has attained the highest office in the land. In fact, I’ve wondered whether there isn’t an undercurrent of hostility to white support for Obama: “Okay, we gave you a black President. Now STFU.” (My only data points are the resentment that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton’s grandstanding generated, and the fact that all those votes for Giuliani came from somewhere in that very liberal city.) The Sharpton-type demagogues, the AA clergy who act insulted when gay rights are called civil rights, AAs who fight women’s rights, are ripe to be called out, because Obama's election has drained their claim to the moral high ground of some of its power.
ugsome | 11.05.08 - 4:20 pm | #

Yes yes, it's always those pesky black people to blame. That 10% of the population made the decision for the rest of the 90%.

And then PUMA and their ilk wonder why people think they are racially biased.

Sincerly,

A gay black male.
J.L | 11.05.08 - 4:34 pm | #

So, JL, the 70% of black women who voted against the civil rights of gay people, but voted for Obama because he's black... what exactly do you have to say about them?
Jay in (not of) L.A. | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 5:00 pm | #

Lcash: Then you've got to see TomK's post under "Be of Good Cheer" this morning. Eery timing. Take a look at what he has to say.
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 5:04 pm | #

ugsome: Please stick around for at least the next few days -- you give a (very) articulate voice to my bumbling thoughts.

So your thoughts are that whites have finally redeemed themselves with the blacks of this country and now that card is off the table? Let's hope bo appoints a huge mix of "others" to various positions so we can move through those discussions, too. We can only hope.
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 5:11 pm | #

J.L.: Please, really. We're all going to fumble the words around these issues -- don't shut down the dialogue with self-referencing pity and then attack PUMA. I'm a proud PUMA and I can tell you that we've all been under fire from the aa's as being "old", old and "white", old, white and "female", "whores", "bitches", and words I cannot write -- ever. The only "people" who think we are racist are the ones who thought we had no good reason to not vote for bo. The same ones who had gave us no good reasons to vote for him -- and still couldn't. But that's old news now.
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 5:20 pm | #

Jeannie -- mark your calendar... we're on the same page!
Jay in (not of) L.A. | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 5:22 pm | #

Jay: You make me smile. Come on, now. You know we've been in agreement on things before. Haven't we? Well, you would probably know that better than me.
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 5:32 pm | #

Jeannie wrote: "So your thoughts are that whites have finally redeemed themselves with the blacks of this country and now that card is off the table? "

More to the point, that they think they have. It is going to be much harder to argue the case for white complicity in racism when all they have to do is look back with big doe eyes and point at Obama.

I also think there is going to be one ugly backlash from all the flinging about the R-word this year. The R-word has become the "commie" of the left--vicious, intended to discredit and destroy, while trivialized and drained of meaning.

I think AAs won a great victory last night but it contains the seeds of some great losses to come.
ugsome | 11.05.08 - 5:34 pm | #

There were several initiatives on the ballot to attempt to limit the mass slaughter of children through the practice of abortion, they all failed.

Those same good people who think its okey dokey to kill the babies of pregnant teens in California without notifiying the parents of the teen of the horrifying and mentally challenging procedure she is about to undergo, think it is also okey dokey to tell faggots to go to the back of the bus and drink from gay only waterfountains. They care not for a fetus' right to life or for faggots right to marry but only about their rights and themselves and fuck the babies and the fags neither of us deserve to live or have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

There are 2 kinds of straight people in this world, those who hate gay people to their face and those who hate gay people behind their back!

The next time I see misogyny, and racism, I will say "Fuck it-no one stuck up for me, why should I stick up for anyone else?"

Not really, I'll speak out-I can't help it- even if people hate me, I will stand up for them.
Topher: in LA not L.A. | 11.05.08 - 5:46 pm | #

I am a gay man and I believe that Barack Obama used the gay community much like he used the black community and he will dispose of both constituencies with haste. Gay’s are so quick to fall in love with the idea of a pro-gay candidate that we often don’t think to ask questions. Think Bill Clinton-don't ask don't tell and DoMA and Welfare Reform. Three anti-gay measures were overwhelmingly adopted in three states so far tonight. I’am still waiting on California's prop 8. For the GLBT community there was not a nickels worth of difference between Obama and McCain’s position on gay marriage with the exception John McCain felt it was not necessary for a constitutional amendment, and it was a state’s rights issue. Obama never clarified his position on that and Hillary did. The GLBT’s got screwed again and Obama rode us bareback and neither used lube nor protection!

Oh and did I mention how he also screwed women by the intimation that women cannot hold one of the highest offices of the land.
Topher: in LA not L.A. | 11.05.08 - 6:04 pm | #

Topher: I see. Your civil rights matter, but my women's rights don't. Take your sanctimonious baby-killer bullshit elsewhere.
ugsome | 11.05.08 - 6:05 pm | #

Topher: I will agree with you that women were royally screwed as well. It's going to be a shitty four years for women and gays alike.
ugsome | 11.05.08 - 6:06 pm | #

Dear J.L., the numbers speak for themselves. AAs voted for Prop 8 at a much higher rate than other groups. There is no special dispensation for one group to discriminate against another. If one group overwhelming goes for Prop 8, I will call them out as bigots, whether they are black, Latino, white, or blue with green spots.

You are going to find that painting people with the R-word brush is rapidly losing its effectiveness due to overuse.
ugsome | 11.05.08 - 6:09 pm | #

Ah, but ugsome and Topher, you're both wrong -- about the next 4 years. The paint is still wet here, kids. Ugsome, you had it right in your comment above. The discussion on race, though not concluded, is thinner now than it has been in a long time. Gays and women are now freer to step forward and take their portions now -- and the arguments on their behalf are made all the stronger because of this.

And Topher, there are more than 2 kinds of people in the world regarding gays, friend. You don't really believe what you said, do you?
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 6:16 pm | #

I am surprised Asians came out against Prop 8. Makes me proud to be one on this sad the day after.

I suppose it makes sense in a way since Asians usually do not like to stick their noses into other people's business, and people's pursuit of happiness is their own business!

I also have my own "two kind of people" meter: Those who care about other people, and those who don't. In the end, a person's actions tell you everything you need to know. That's why I can never be an obot.
kc | 11.05.08 - 7:42 pm | #

And all these gay websites and celebs that came out so strongly for BO, and even implied that if you didn't support BO, you were a traitor. I wonder what those people are thinking now? That BO would come save the day down the line? Sorry, he'll be too busy basking in his glory, or something. Self-delusions fade ever so slowly, even though the evidence was clear from the start. Gay obots are just the first to feel the tug of reality. They will be the first group thrown under the bus.
kc | 11.05.08 - 7:56 pm | #

The bad result in California turned out as it was forecast by the pollsters. It is a sad absurdity that a symbolic triumph of civil rights ran concurrent with a real abrogation of the rights of the GLBT community.
Steven Mather | 11.05.08 - 7:59 pm | #

Am I (not) seeing things? I have to travel from one end of our large northwest city to the other in dense traffic as a carpool mom. Seems to me every other vehicle had a bo sticker on it a few days ago. Maybe half a dozen is all I see today. Could it be? Did all those Prius drivers....? Nah. maybe?
Jeannie | 11.05.08 - 8:25 pm | #

OK--back up here!
Fact is over 50% of Californians voted for Prop 8. We can slice and dice the demographics and point fingers at certain groups, but that seems unfair to me.
Blacks make up 10% of the population. So if only 8% of Blacks vote, and 5% of that # are for prop 8, that is only a small portion of the electorate that is voting for Prop 8.
Just because someone is a Democrat doesn't mean they support gay marriage. I don't recall the major candidates saying they support gay marriage.
Kara | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 9:00 pm | #

Kara --

How can you address my note above?

How is it okay that, demographically speaking, the minority group that has been the central focus of civil rights in this country, voted OVERWHELMINGLY against the civil rights of another group while simultaneously cheering their own civil rights victory?
Jay in (not of) L.A. | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 9:11 pm | #

I think that the problem Kara is that Prop 8 would not have passed if Asians, Latinos, and Whites were the only ones voting.

It's because the AA community voted so overwhelmingly for it that it passed.

Although the AA population here is small, it really turned the tide on 8.

Whites and Asians voted 53% against it. Latinos voted 51% for it. Those numbers easily cancel each other out.

There is plenty of blame to go around as to why such a hateful proposition passed in what is supposed to be a liberal state, but, when it comes down to it, one of the most oppressed groups in the history of the US stood together to oppress another oppressed group. To me, that is not only hypocritical, but tragic.
brand | 11.05.08 - 9:11 pm | #